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Love the game, Id did an amazing job optimization, music, game play, art, etc and yet this happens.. It stings a bit since I was looking forward to play the dlc, which I already payed for since I pre-ordered DE.

This without mentioning that I have zero interest in BM, I probably played it less than five times since release, in contrast I've hs playing the campaign, which is now suffering from performance issues wasn't happening before the update.

Definitely not comfortable with third-party software messing with things at kernel level. Who's to say that I can actually uninstall it to begin with?

Truthfully, you can't even know for sure. I won't be leaving a bad steam review for this simply because I had a lot of fun playing it, and because I know that most people don't care about this.

That being said, Doom eternal got uninstalled immediately. Mark it 'not recommended' and then explain why you uninstalled.

Then when they fix this, you can change it to recommended. You can uninstall anything. It just requires some fuckery in this case.

So it should be easy to remove by using ccleaner to uninstall it, and then fixing the registry issues.

You shouldn't be using CCleaner, they're owned by another shady company, Avast. CCleaner even had malware packed in the executable some time ago.

Yeah Denuvo Anti-Cheat almost fucked up my computer. I kept getting blue screens on my computer as soon as Doom got the update.

I deleted Doom Eternal and no blue screen has popped up yet. People filed class action lawsuits with Sony for the whole other os bullshit, why shouldn't we do it too?

Sony BMG copy protection rootkit scandal. I played through one single player mission and had no issues besides a weird glitch where an Archvile kept summoning enemies despite being dead, but it's hard to say what else might have gone wrong if I'd kept playing after that.

It took the community a couple of days to get the game up and running on our OSes, since the game requires cutting edge Vulkan support.

I have put about 80 hours in the game so far, and I intended to put in a hell of a lot more. I love it. It's probably the best game I've ever played.

This update is bad enough for Windows users, but it completely stops the game being playable for us. This is so stupid I wasn't even afraid it would ever happen, but there you go.

Doom Eternal is now fucking ruined. Great move there Bethesda, even if you don't fuck up releases at launch, you'll find a way to fuck it up regardless.

I uninstalled Doom Eternal and won't be considering playing it ever again until they remove this shit. This is fucking outrageous.

Linux guy here too, pretty disappointed with the news. I know Linux was never a huge priority at id, but we usually got builds when it was an independent shop.

Plus, the engines usually got source releases later on, which was great. Based on how well DOOM worked, them removing Denuevo, and several other factors, I naively assumed it was going to be great this time too.

Between this and other recent issues, I think I've been cured of caring about new id releases. Linux used to be a higher priority at id when John Carmack was still part of the technical and executive team.

He always had a philanthropic approach to code, and would fight to have source code released to ensure people could engineer and compile binaries for other platforms, even if it meant going through the code, objects, source etc to remove 3rd party APIs that were under license.

He went the extra mile and then some to be as inclusive as he could, and I guarantee he wouldn't have stood for this bullshit. I bought the game only after making sure it would run with Proton.

I even got the DLC package. I'm disgusted Funnily enough, after years of feeling 'stuck' on Windows due to gaming support, I'd dipped my toes back in and saw how far Linux had come.

I have, within the last month or so, finally converted entirely to using Linux as my daily driver. After using that excuse since about , which was pretty valid in those days.

I guess that's either really good or really bad timing on my part bad in that DOOM Eternal is, for now, practically a coaster in my library; good in that my machine doesn't have DAC poking around.

Wait so if this is true, then why the hell would Id or Bethesda be ok with allowing this in their game and putting their customers at risk?

Great question. At the very least it should ONLY be required for multiplayer and we should have been informed in advance, as in before purchasing the game, about its inclusion.

If i had to guess I have no evidence to back this up, pure speculation I'd say Bethesda received some sort of deal from Irdeto to use their anti-cheat solution since they already used their anti-tamper solution.

I have another possible theory that could be a parallel explanation. With the valorant beta's use of the vanguard anti-cheat system, The idea of using a kernel-level driver for anti-cheat has gotten a lot of attention because of how foolproof it can be in theory.

This could be denuvo's way of trying to compete with their version of the vanguard anti-cheat system.

But as an IRL computer scientist, You are correct. A kernel ring 0 driver is great on paper but can be disastrous in practice, if handled poorly.

If Bethesda decides to dig in their heels on keeping this anti-cheat system, this can only end either really good or really bad.

A self updating ring zero driver is a disaster waiting to happen. They will be able to do anything that they want with them.

Nothing is foolproof. It's only a matter of time before someone cracks it. Likely someone with the backing of an entire government, or large corporate entity.

Gone are the days of college kids writing viruses for the fun of it. Damn do I miss those viruses, the jobs that just posted funny messages like "You got hax0red bro!

Now it's my computer won't log on, my uefi is in Chinese, and there's smoke coming out of my USB ports.

Oh no, those aren't the viruses you need to worry about. It's the ones that hijack your computer to be a part of a botnet attack or ones that harvest your data that are the real fuckers.

Capcom did this for Street Fighter V. They wanted to prevent memory modding of the engine by using a kernel level driver to validate the game files and memory space.

A modder managed that same week to open it up, they found all it did was allow elevated access to a function call in their executable, he then just changed the pointer for this call to any arbitrary code he wanted to run which actually allowed him to execute any code he wanted to at that pointer.

Sources and articles can be found in the wiki page. There are cheats for Valorant, and even though they get caught and fixed pretty quickly, new ones come out every day.

This is because they used the unreal engine, probably the most hacked and understood modern gaming engine around.

People didnt have to invent or write new hacks, they simply have to find a way around vanguard.

To be brutally honest I dont see how they are going to keep hacking limited. Every single unreal engine multiplayer game has significant issues with hackers.

I LOVE valorant but we will see how the future shakes out :. So we have to have this security risk and game performance crasher on our pc for this game or until it is removed, well I hope it isn't on long.

This is so sad. Software engineer here literally had issues with playing games on Windows EDIT: I said Linux here because I just woke up, Valorant can't be played on Linux for obvious reasons last week due to Volorant's anti cheat.

It was blocking sound to my VR headset. Kernel level anything has to be a careful thing to weigh up, as a linux developer I like our philosophy on it and that is if you can run in only user space stay away from kernel space.

If you really need something in kernel space then keep it small and unload after you are done. They have technically drastically changed something people have already bought, and it could be argued that this is a bait and switch.

Do you think there's any potential for a class action lawsuit, demanding our money back? That would be a difficult case under any circumstances: firstly you'd have to get past the attachment contract the terms and conditions you probably clicked "agree" on without reading which almost certainly says you have a licence for access to software that they can change at a later date, not a copy of a specific game.

Courts don't like these, but they've held up so far in this industry. Second you'd have to demonstrate that not having Denuvo Anti-Cheat in it was something they deliberately marketed as a feature of the game in order to prove the marketing was deceptive, and have some evidence this was a conscious effort on their part to act deceptively: they can argue that you do have a copy of Doom Eternal with the advertised features, and they never claimed they would not add anti-cheat software at a later date.

I sent my refund request to Valve. Will see what they respond. EU generally isn't very fond of these stunts.

As a US citizen, I wish we had better consumer protections. But alas most of our politicians are twats; bought and paid for. That being said, there is likely a potential.

What they have done is also very likely against consumer protection laws in places such as the EU. It ended with multiple class action lawsuits, though they were settled out of court by Sony along with them setting up an exchange program for rootkit-free CDs.

I don't understand how Microsoft is allowing this. I thought they blocked random software installing itself into ring0 back when Vista came out, hance why games using StarForce et al don't work without a crack.

Because Microsoft is totally onboard with "milk the customer for money AND sell their data"-boat. I just watched a YouTube doc not too long ago about a piece of DRM that was popular with publishers in the early oughts, it too would install itself at kernel level and was responsible for more than a few PCs shitting the bed.

Yet, here we are. Bethesda doesn't give a shit about their customers. It's pretty much that simple. Id probably didn't have much of a say in the matter but if they did fuck them too.

Why did we use leaded gas for so long? It was beneficial for manufacturers because they could make cheap engines. Here it's a good way for them to keep the game cheat free.

Your safety is rarely a concern and bad PR dissapears quickly or just doesn't do anything. At the risk of sounding like Tinfoil Hat Guy, here's a couple ideas.

I'm mixing id, Zenimax, and Bethesda all under the latter flag here for simplicity. Its Bethesda, they don't give a shit about their customers, and they already have your money.

Bethesda also is the kind of company that didn't allow id Software to release the game for macOS and Linux.

Also because Apple is a dick and doesn't even properly support newer versions of OpenGL or Vulkan at all. This is so upsetting. I've been loving the Hell out of multilayer but I don't want any of this on my desktop.

Is this ID or Bethesda? This is some really fucked up shit then if kernel viruses can fuck up everyone's computer that bad.

So for perspective: it installed a ton of Trojans basically inviting all the other viruses and NO antivirus software detected it except for Malwarebytes.

I tried like 6 different programs until it picked it up. I tried to get rid of them but it took admin controls.

I had to fucking repartition my hard drive to get that fucking thing off. I had no idea what the fuck that even was until then.

It took me like a week straight to fix it. On top of your troubles, i suppose in the case of others and potentially those who can be affected by a denuvo exploit through this game, your personal info can be stolen.

Bank logins, professional emails, other game accounts, tax shit, it's no fucking joke. Everyone should have the right to better measures of locking down their computer with excellent security due to the modern age being so digitally managed economically and personally in developed countries.

Really disappointing that this is the update being focused on instead of content. Adding invasions, those yellow buffed demons, battlemode fixes.

I play on console and have been waiting for a meaningful update since release. Come to find out my brethren over on PC are getting their shit rocked by an anti-cheat for a game with stupid enough netcode and lag that cheating isnt even necessary.

What the fuck are update priorities over there? Much as they might deny it I guarantee you this is being used to gather data for sale.

There's no competitive scene to justify how anti cheat at all much less kernel level. I've lost up to 20 FPS when I was getting a smooth 60 before this crap installed.

Worst of all, you can't remove it and launch the game despite what the Bethesda shill account on here is saying. I too noticed a performance dip in gameplay before I removed the game completely from my machine.

Unfortunately, game performance problems are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the issues this is bound to cause.

It truely shows how shitty Denuvo is when it can fuck over a well optimized game this badly. Yeah, I never got why people try to deny that DRM, anticheat, etc eats performance Even just monitoring your FPS in software is enough to cause it to dip slightly over what you'd normally get.

They get more and more complex, can't try to tell me that it's not using up my CPU when they're doing more and more to check if everything's legit, even if that load is offloaded to otherwise idle CPU cores.

I wish I could refund this fuckin game now. I never buy shit at launch, but I did this out of trust. Now 2 months later they want to fuck me.

Activision realy fucked us all over with crash team racing adding fucking micro transaction after it got great reviews for not having them.

And Bethesda claimed this game didn't have any microtransactions, so they moved purchasable skins for this game over to Twitch Prime, making them microtransactions-by-proxy.

This is the shit that's runineing gaming you can't just pay once get everything you need Acounts on many different services to get access to everything.

Hearthstone had a samsung galaxy event for a card back. Where you had to log onto hearthstone and connect your battlenet on a samsung phone for the card back.

I think it was around the time a new galaxy phone came out I'm probably wrong on this. That's one of the more ridiculous events for something "exclusive" I've seen in games.

Like you have to have a certain several hundred dollar device to get a "free" cardback in a digital game. Obviously people found ways to circumvent having to buy a phone or having someone let them use it for that.

But it's just ridiculous when I think about it. I get most of these companies, but Capcom? They've been doing pretty well lately if you ask me.

Most of what they've released recently has been top tier quality. I mean DMC5 had some stupid microtransactions that were made invalid with Dr.

Faust anyway , but other than that I don't recall anything terrible they've done? They had a very similar situation a few years back with seemingly "accidentally" installing rootkits on peoples computers through Street Fighter.

That is I can definitely see how people would have a lingering hatred towards Capcom because of this. In recent years I think capcom has earned enough goodwill to be removed from lists like this, I get not everyone was pleased with re3 remake but even still just that one game isnt enough to neglect all the other great games they've put out recently.

I was wondering why i keep getting constant frame drops, why do they even have it when games are cracked anyway. Its just annoying to have constant fps drops to 30, I'm in the ridiculous position of having to torrent a game I paid full price for because the torrent is safer.

G fucking G. I changed my review, and uninstalled, but I have like hours on the game already. No refund for me! Sadly, in support of ID I bought the season pass too since they did so well with I rarely do that.

I am going to have to see how this plays out before I will consider reinstalling to enjoy the DLC. The cake arrives and it tastes great. But in the middle of the eating, a baker barges in your home and shit on the cake.

It's now not only a cake you didn't order but it's ruined. Issuing a refund is the least you can do. Still trying for a refund myself.

It kind of sucks a lot as the game itself was fun, even if I had issues with some of the game design philosophy.

I loved the game. I played the shit out of it. I am not, however, going to install game software at a root level on my PC.

At least I got to enjoy it for a while. I will wait until the blowback forces them to back pedal on the anti-cheat.

I really don't mind the DRM - I've never had performance issues from the Denuvo anti-piracy software since my computer is a beast.

The root level anti-cheat is non-negotiable for me though. That's effectively where I'm coming from. I'm not a fan of the anti-piracy version of Denova myself due to the host of issues they've had over the years but it's something I can tolerate.

I know I won't get a refund but I'm hoping it will draw such attention to the issue if enough other people do so that it'll have to be addressed.

It's unlikely even so but it's worth a shot. Well that and I get kind of irritated when something I bought is for all intents and purposes taken from me since I purchased it under false impressions apparently.

A my antivirus flags Denuvo as malware and won't allow the game to install it, meaning I can no longer play the game. Refund me.

Linked helpful screenshot. B I did not agree to having what amounts to malware be installed on my system when I bought and installed the game, the EULA I agreed to does not cover this.

Yeah - its bad enough that advertising companies like Google and Facebook constantly spy on us to the point where we can't even opt out anymore while they turn over our data to the government , now they want root access to our PCs too.

All supposedly to prevent cheating in a multiplayer mode that no one actually plays I saw a post from Bethesda saying that you can uninstall the program and still play single player.

I don't want to have to uninstall their malware! I don't want it on my PC in the first place, and I don't trust them enough to believe that all traces of the software and any potential vulnerabilities it creates will actually be removed if I hit the button to uninstall!

This stuff is getting out of hand, and I wish people would care about these issues more. I'm all for companies making shit tons of money for making great products since that is how I have a job and can keep food on my plate, but seriously.

These people are just selling their souls. The post from Bethesda is a lie anyways. The game will not run until Denuvo AC is reinstalled, and if you don't actively prevent it from doing so Doom Eternal will automatically reinstall it without telling you when you launch the game.

Oh yeah, the response to the post said exactly that. That is how it always works. My point though, is in principal, I shouldn't have to uninstall a virus to play a game I paid for.

Nor should I have to install a virus that was not advertised as included when I originally bought the game.

That would definitely have effected my purchase decision. EDIT: there is one coming up. Just tried it myself.

So it "installing itself without telling you" is just a lie. Thanks for following your conscience.

Please share this thread with friends and others so that this cannot be swept under the rug. The update finished so I don't know if it installed.

I changed my review and uninstalled as well. Sent a refund request probably gonna get denied. Unfortunately Steam already auto-updated the game for me but I haven't started it up yet.

Can someone confirm that Denuvo Anti-Cheat will only be installed when I start up the game? I'm not going to be rash and try to get a refund but I am going to wait a bit to see what Bethesda and id Software do before starting up the game again.

I like the game and I was looking forward to the DLC but this sours me a bit. When you run Doom for the first time after update, your PC will ask if you want Denuvo to make changes to your PC, I said no and did the above checks OP has posted, doesn't seem to be installed.

I'm in the same situation as you, with Steam auto-updating the game. I have yet to confirm the installation of Denuvo. What kinda bullshit is that?

If you are in Canada you can file a complaint with the Competition Bureau Canada against Bethesda regarding this issue.

And the info you will need to fill the form Which is all easily found online, but if y'all have it available you're more likely to fill the form out.

Altman - Chairman Zenimax Media. Give us an option to disable anti-cheat so that at least we can play single-player. Because of this I can't play this game on Linux.

Halo mcc is a good example of how to do anti-cheat. Everyone wins from it, Linux and Windows users.

What are we doing, as a community, to tell id that this isn't acceptable? Is there a petition? Do we have a forum post?

Can someone contact one of the big-name id guys on Twitter or something and ask them for comment on it? I don't want this shit on my computer but I don't want to give up on this goddamn game, I've spent the last month and a half on a project centered wholly on my love of the game and the franchise.

Only then will anything change. So as a plebian and someone who doesn't know too much about the inner workings of computers.

What's ring-0 or the kernel level and what's so dangerous about it all? The details are highly technical and a little boring, so I'm not going to touch specifics.

Instead, I'm going to walk you through an Abstract Model of what a Computer is. But before we get to that, I need to clarify a bit of terminology.

There are two "parts" to a Computer:. The Abstract Model we're about to talk about tells us how the Virtual Software gets converted into electrical impulses work in the Physical Hardware.

The Model is traditionally depicted as a series of concentric rings, with a circle at the center. The circle represents the Computer's Hardware.

This is the place where the Computer is a real thing. You can see it, you can touch it, and you can measure the electric impulses flowing through it.

The Kernel is the interface between Software and Critical Hardware. It handles Virtual Memory Management. It handles scheduling when individual programs run on the machine.

It enforces the Operating System's Security Protocols. Because it needs to run the entire system, the Kernel cannot protect the system from itself.

Everything that runs in the Kernel can directly access the Hardware. They have Kernel-Like Control over the Hardware they're connected to The Drivers control their component, and don't do anything else.

This is where the Drivers for a lot of external components live. Your Keyboard and Mouse Drivers are probably in Ring The same can be said for your Audio Drivers.

Your Printer's Drivers might be in Ring-2, or they might be stored up in the Application Layer, depending on implementation. Once you get above Ring-2, you start running into Programs.

Some of these are Service Programs that take care of things in the background. Some of them are Applications that directly interface with the Outermost Ring: the User.

All of them need to talk to the Kernel to get anything of substance done. This is the foundation of your Computer's Security. Individual Programs can not access Memory that has been allocated to another Program by the Operating System.

Attempts to do so will generally result in the Kernel killing the process that made an illegal attempt to access memory. The Kernel cannot protect the system from itself.

That means that Denuvo Anti-Cheat can do two things:. Put all of that together, and that means that Denuvo Anti-Cheat can do whatever it wants , and your Computer's Security Protocols and Program can't do anything to stop it.

It has the permissions necessary to execute arbitrary code Every Program has Security Vulnerabilities. A Vulnerability will eventually be found in Denuvo.

If we're lucky, a White-Hat will find it and pass word on to Denuvo. If we're unlucky, then someone less noble will discover the Vulnerability and begin to exploit it.

Hackers will eventually find a Vulnerability that allows them to take control of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, and use it to write arbitrary code into Memory.

If they replace the Instructions for a program that is currently running, then they will be able to make the computer do whatever they want.

They can give themselves a Administrator-Level user account on the machine, remove your Administrator access, and then run whatever program they damn well please on your hardware.

Now, this isn't an uncommon practice. That's the only place that they can watch every other program that's running in the machine, and investigate suspicious ones.

That means that your machine is only vulnerable while you're playing a Multiplayer Match, and people who don't play Multiplayer can uninstall the program and still have access to their game.

You can either mitigate the risk by paying attention, or just not use multiplayer. That's a problem. These are mostly unused these days as drivers can run in either ring without much interference.

Rings 0, 1, and 2 are all regarded as "supervisor" rings, and can access and write to CR3 contains the address of the current processor's page table heirarchy at any time.

Rings 0, 1, and 2 by virtue of being supervisor can all write to supervisor pages the kernel is mapped into these for obvious reasons, as Ring 3 cannot access them.

For the same reasons above, Rings 0, 1, and 2 can all read and write to any memory address, provided they map it in the page tables.

However, Rings 1 and 2 cannot execute certain priviliged instructions, which are Ring 0 exclusive. Individual programs can and do access the memory of other programs, provided the user lets them.

This is how a lot of cheats work. On Windows, for example, two functions are provided - ReadProcessMemory and WriteProcessMemory, that provided the attacker is running as administrator, can read and write to any arbitrary address is any other process.

For the most part however, this guy is right. Unless you are running DOOM and Windows in a virtual machine the "fake" ring 0 constructed by hardware virtualization has a different set of permissions , you are screwing yourself by running Denuvo in Ring 0.

Kernel level is the most fundamental level of your operating system. The kernel is the part of the OS that makes all the "magic" happen so to speak.

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